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Justin Hartwig vs Sean Mahan = No Contest
By Dagger | August 5, 2008
There is no training camp battle between Justin Hartwig and Sean Mahan. There can’t be.
Let’s try an experiment real quick……We’re going to look at how NFL DTs and NTs performed vs the Steelers (and Sean Mahan) this past season and then we’re going to look at how these DTs and NTs performed in their very next games. Did Sean Mahan struggle because he ran into amazing talent? Was he facing guys that absolutely dominated on a week to week basis? Unfortunately for Mahan the answer is NO.
In fact, most of the DTs and NTs he faced in 2007 had the best games of their entire season when they faced Mahan and the Steelers.
This will give you an idea of how badly Mahan struggled last year. Remember, NT/DT’s aren’t even really counted on for sacks or tackles, they’re there to take up space, clog the line of scrimmage, collapse the pocket, etc….piling up tackles for these guys is an added bonus. And we won’t even mention how the Steelers often had to use/scheme a LG or RG to help Mahan do his job at the line of scrimmage during games where he was routinely getting overmatched. And we won’t even mention that the bogus QB Sweep call in the Jacksonville playoff game was called because Head Coach Mike Tomlin was worried about “Defensive Line pressure coming up the middle”.
Warning: Sean Mahan was actually MUCH worse than you even thought……
Darnell Dockett (Arizona) stats vs Sean Mahan: 6 tackles, 2.5 sacks
(statistically the 2nd best game of his entire season)
The very next week (vs next opponent): 3 tackles 0 sacks
Vonnie Holliday (Miami) stats vs Sean Mahan: 6 tackles, 1 sack
(statistically the best game of his entire season)
Next week: 1 tackle, 0 sacks
Keith Traylor (Miami) stats vs Sean Mahan: 3 tackles, 0 sacks
Next week: 1 tackle, 0 sacks
Dewayne Robertson (Jets) stats vs Sean Mahan: 6 tackles, 2.5 sacks
(statistically the best game of his entire season)
Next week: 1 tackle, 1 sack
Sione Pouha (Jets) stats vs Sean Mahan: 6 tackles, 0 sacks
(statistically the 2nd best game of his entire season)
Next game: 2 tackles, 0 sacks
Vince Wilfork (Patriots) stats vs Sean Mahan: 7 tackles, 1 sack
(statistically the best game of his entire season)
Next game: 2 tackles, 0 sacks
Ty Warren (Patriots) stats vs Sean Mahan: 4 tackles, 0 sacks
Next game: 4 tackles, 0 sacks
Orpheus Roye (Cleveland) stats vs Sean Mahan: 6 tackles, 0 sacks
Next week: 3 tackles, 0 sacks
Orpheus Roye (2nd game vs Cleveland) stas vs Sean Mahan: 3 tackles, 0 sacks
Next week: 1 tackle, 0 sacks
Domato Peko (Bengals) stats vs Sean Mahan: 7 tackles, 0 sacks
(statistically the 2nd best game of his entire season)
Next game: 3 tackles, 0 sacks
Alvin McKinley (Denver) stats vs Sean Mahan: 3 tackles, 1 sack
(statistically the best game of his entire season, only had 2 sacks all year)
Next week: 1 tackle, 0 sacks
Haloti Ngata (Baltimore) stats vs Sean Mahan: 6 tackles, 0 sacks
(statistically his best game of the entire season)
Previous week: 3 tackles, 0 sacks
Kelly Gregg (Baltimore) stats vs Sean Mahan: 7 tackles, 0 sacks
Previous week: 6 tackles, 0 sacks
John Henderson (Jags) stats vs Sean Mahan: 5 tackle, 1 sack
(statistically his best game of the entire season)
Next game: 1 tackle, 0 sacks
Rob Meier (Jags) stats vs Sean Mahan: 2 tackles, 1 sack
Previous game: 2 tackles, 0.5 sacks
Domato Peko (2nd game vs Bengals) stats vs Sean Mahan: 3 tackles, 1 sack
(records his only sack of the season)
Next game: 2 tackles, 0 sacks
John Thornton (2nd game vs Bengals) stats vs Sean Mahan: 4 tackles, 0 sacks
(statistically his best game of the entire season)
Next game: 0 tackles, 0 sacks
————————————————————————
Gerry Dulac puts together a real solid article today about the Hartwig vs Mahan battle at Center.
Training camp is just over a week old and Steeler Nation is up-in-arms over the fact that last year’s starter (a converted Guard) Sean Mahan is still getting starter reps in practice. Don’t fret Steeler Nation…..The Steelers signed Justin Hartwig to a 2 year $3.7 million dollar contract this offseason to come in and take over for Mahan. Sure the coaches are pretending there is an internal competition and that a starter hasn’t been decided, but anyone who watched the Steelers OLine last year knows Mahan was getting benched the second Hartwig signed the Steelers offer.
(side note: some might have told you that Max Starks was penciled in for a starting role after he signed his offer sheet as well, but that’s a discussion for another time. Much like the Hartwig vs Mahan faux battle….the camp competition at RT seemingly doesn’t really exist either. The coaches love Willie Colon and Max Starks isn’t really getting a chance to unseat him.)
Back to the issue at hand. Whether you know it or not, whether you care or not, whether you admit it or not….you are a card-carrying member of the Justin Hartwig fan club. The Steelers need him to start, the success of the offensive line largely depends on his ability to do what Mahan couldn’t do last year. If you want to see overall OLine improvement from last year, he better be our starting Center come Week 1.
As we gear up towards the start of the exhibition season and the Steelers start to search for a few “answers” on the Offensive Line, Hartwig’s play should be something you key in on each and every game. When Hartwig is in the game does Arians go out of his way to call runs up the middle? When we get in shortyardage does he go for the 1st down right over Hartwig’s back? My guess is Yes and Yes.
(FYI: Should you miss anything, PGH will be right here to get you up to speed via breakdowns and screencaps; so you can look forward to that. We’ll be all over who gets featured during the preseason games and who is getting certain plays called strictly for the benefit of “seeing what they got”)
In case you forgot why Mahan needs to be removed from the OL, let us remind you:
Sure the screencaps above are just a small sample size but the lack of push, the DL penetration up the middle of our OL, the “blowing up plays before they even develop”, and the lack of push up the middle on 3rd and 1, 4th and 1, and goalline situations were issues that plagued the Steelers all year long. You know you’re offensive line is struggling when your “go-to play” on the 1 yard line is always a pass to a TE.
When your Center, the guy that is spearheading your attack, is consistently being shoved back into the backfield, you have a major problem that disrupts everything you try to do on offense.
Our full article about the issue can be found here.
Now, we don’t mean to totally bash Sean Mahan, we’ve said it a number of times and we’ll say it again…he has all the tools necessary to make a solid NFL Guard (in fact, he will prove to be a very versatile asset and Tomlin will grow to love his “position flexibility” as he can play LG, C, or RG if needed). He gets to the the 2nd level well, he has decent feet, and he can pull and get around the edges and work in space. His major problem is moving large men in close quarters. Unfortunately, the NFL (and the AFC in particular) is full of big fat DT/NT that Mahan must deal with on a weekly basis.
There is nothing Mahan can do this preseason to improve his size, strength, or ability to move loads like Dewayne Robertson, Shaun Rogers, John Henderson, Haloti Ngata, etc….. He just physically can’t handle the job.
Enter Justin Hartwig.
By no stretch of the imagination is Hartwig the next Mike Webster, but he is better equipt to start at Center. Why? I’m glad you asked.
Mahan is listed at 6′3″ 301 lbs. Just look at the guy arriving to training camp this season….does he strike you as the type of man that will push a 350 pound NT off the line of scrimmage at the goalline?
Hartwig (according to the Dulac article above) is listed at 6′5 and between 315 and 325 lbs. He has added 10-15 pounds to his frame since the Steelers signed him. Any chance the coaching staff told Hartwig they wanted him to get bigger? Surely Hartwig doesn’t deserve to start over Mahan just because of his measurables, but there is something to be said for having a big center these days.
Just as Gene Collier of the Post-Gazette points out that the Steelers will be facing off against the NFL’s best quarterbacks this season, the Black and Gold must also face some of the biggest and must disruptive DT/NTs in the league.
To sum up, Hartwig may not be an all-star this year but he will do a better job than Mahan did. By upgrading our Center position, there will be a trickle down effect that will impact the entire line. The Steelers should have more success near the goalline (they won’t always have to resort to TE passes and trickery), they should actually be able to push the DL off he ball once in a while, they should provide Ben with a better pocket to pass from, and the “up the middle” running game should be improved.
Not every team has a traditional NT but here are some of the guys that will line-up opposite the Steelers center this year:
Baltimore: Kelly Gregg, Haloti Ngata
Cleveland: Shaun Rogers, Shaun Smith
Cincinnati: Domata Peko, John Thornton
Philadelphia: Brodrick Bunkley, Kimo Von Oelhoffen, Mike Patterson
Jacksonville: John Henderson
New York Giants: Fred Robbins, Barry Cofield
Washington: Cornelius Griffin
San Diego: Jamal Williams, Luis Castillo
New England: Vince Wilfork, Ty Warren
Tennessee: Albert Haynesworth
Topics: Steelers | 3 Comments »
August 8th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
You guys are turning me into a stats junkie! While this statistical evidence is damning enough, I’d be interested in seeing a Before Steelers/After Steelers & Season Average for the DT/NTs VS Mahan to get a better comparison. Not that I think it will improve Mahan’s position…
Thanks again for the info!
GO STEELERS!
August 17th, 2008 at 10:27 am
Good job with the stats. Anyone can manipulate them to defend the point they are already trying to make. How about making it a little more scientific? Sound too difficult? I’ll start if off for you.
Consider this, Mahan allowed 11 sacks total in 2007. He played a total of 17 games. Now, 7 of the 11 sacks were allowed in the first 6 games of the season. What does this mean? He improved from over 1 sack per game on average during the first 6 weeks, down to 0.36 sacks per game on average for THE LAST 11 WEEKS. Why didn’t you mention those statistics? Was it because it would take away any credibility you had for bashing other football players?
What’s more, his tackles allowed per game improved significantly after the first 6 weeks. I’ll leave the stats up to you to figure out (I already did them).
Oh, and there’s more. Turns out you were cherry-picking your stats. I ran a search and confirmed it. For example, you said Vonnie Holliday had 6 tackles (implying they were solo tackles) against Mahan. Well, Holliday only had 5 tackles against Mahan, and 2 of those were NOT solo, meaning that Holliday really only had 3 solo tackles against Mahan. Guess what? Holliday also only averages 3 solo tackles per game. So, he did “average” against Mahan. If you want to take it a step further, Holliday only averages 3.8 total tackles per game (solo and assisted). This means that Holliday participates in 0.8 assisted tackles per game. Against the Steeler’s, Holliday assisted in 2 tackles. Now, you’re going to have to think about what this statistic means. Ready? What it means is–the problem isn’t soley on Mahan, the problem obviously is with the o-line. Where did those other “assisted” players come from? Is Mahan supposed to block them by himself also? What the hell are the other guys doing on the line? And why didn’t you mention that, either? I ran the same search on the other players and found the same cherry-picking tactics; it wasn’t just with Holliday. So, we’ll see if you will clarify or expain yourself, or if you’ll just hide behind your column.
I don’t know about you, and I don’t care to know about you, either. But I can speak for myself when I say that I would rather have the player who is versatile and can make the needed adjustments. Mahan can make the needed adjustments, and he has done just that. He also happens to understand the game better than you give him credit for. In fact, that is one of the greatest traits a player can have. His former coaches in Tampa repeated that about him numerous times, and if I recall correctly, the Steeler’s coaches have said the same. So, if he has improved this much, and it was only his first season as a center, and it was on a completely new team, imagine how much more he can improve.
That’s it for now. I’ll be sure to follow your columns from now on. You may want to consider websites that don’t allow reader feedback, unless you don’t mind hearing from me.
August 17th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Thanks for the feedback, we welcome all comments and never expect everyone to fully agree with our take. That wouldn’t be much fun. The fact that a million people can watch a game and each person has a different take on the game is what makes sports fun to debate and talk about. If everyone agreed 100% of the time sportstalk-radio wouldn’t exist (for example).
We never implied that these tackle totals were SOLO. We also aimed to show that Mahan’s play had a domino effect on the rest of the line.
One thing that we have talked about in regards to Mahan for over 1 year (not sure if you have been reading us that long or not) is that his lack of push and inability to deal with larger men has a trickle down effect on the rest of the line. When Faneca and Simmons have to “help” Mahan on most plays, this frees up other DL, DT, DE to make plays. We mentioned that some of the guys on our list aren’t even traditional Casey Hampton-like NoseTackles. These guys were often freed up because a LG or RG was shifting over a bit to help Mahan. You can’t really capture that with stats (and stats never tell the entire story, we know that) but it explains why certain DL were having career days vs the Steelers OL.
Also important to remember as just because “his man” didn’t record a sack, tackle, etc…on a play doesn’t mean he didn’t kill a play. There are a bunch of examples we pointed out last year of Mahan failing to get any push (or was driven backwards)on shortyardage and goalline situations that killed plays. Now, his man didn’t get a sack or a tackle, but the 3rd and 1 or 3rd and goal was not converted because his man was in the backfield before the ball was even handed to the RB. These don’t show up in the stats column.
I believe the stats we put up in this post dont tell the ENTIRE story (stats cant do that) but it tells you something about Mahan’s performance and the impact his sub-par play had on the OL and the DLineman they faced on a weekly basis.
We didn’t include these stats but we discussed them last year: do you know the total yardage gained for the Steelers RBs while running up the middle behind Mahan? Do you know the total yardage/attempts gained running to the left? Do you know the yardage/attempts gained running to the right? We talked about Mahan for a full 12 months and gave all sorts of stats, screencaps, numbers, etc….this one post wasn’t meant as the end-all-be-all “Mahan needs to be replaced” argument. That debate has been going on for over a year…..this was just one last look at the season he had in 2007. So, remember the trickle down effect that doesn’t show up in these stats and remember the “lack of push” that can’t be shown in these stats.
Anyways, I appreciate the research and stats you found in putting your response together. As you mentioned, stats are to be taken with a grain of salt…they can’t tell you the entire story. Ever.
Also don’t forget: We like Mahan as a Guard, he has good feet, gets to the 2nd level, and can move….perhaps he should be starting in place of Simmons? but against bigger guys in “one-on-one combat” vs a DT/NT he struggles.
If he had a GREAT SEASON last year, they wouldn’t have brought in Hartwig and Mahan wouldn’t be fighting for his job would he?
If you want to write a “pro-Mahan” or a “Mahan isn’t as bad as you think” response shoot us an email on our contact us page and we’ll post it here as a rebuttal to this here post.