THE BEST PLAYERS MONEY CAN BUY!
Since the salary cap was first introduced to the NFL in 1994, general managers across the league have been susceptible to increasing criticism regarding their performance, from their fans. One could say that this rise is due to the greater transparency of front offices in the NFL (outside of New England, of course). The better answer, however, is that GMs are now more accountable for the quality of their spending now that the amount of spending is regulated by the league.
Some fans believe that debating front office spending is as important as arguing about box office scores in the movie industry (a stat that has no bearing on anybody outside of Hollywood). These fans believe that discussing such a topic is inconsequential due to the acceptance of a minimum team salary, the vagueness inherent in some contracts, the lack of 100% guaranteed contracts, the constant restructuring of contracts, and perhaps above all the complexities of the salary cap.
We, on the other hand, subscribe to the popular belief that front office maneuvers are just as important as the plays on the field. It is this belief that has made the NFL’s offseason as active as it is today, from a fan’s perspective. It is also this belief that led to a contentious debate between the two main factions of this blog, Skins fans vs. Steelers fans, regarding how our teams spend their money. Read the comments section to see what transpired and feel free to chime in.
You know how Steeler fans on the board brag about their front office’s fiscal responsibility? Yeah, well…. WHAT:
For the year of 2006 (all salaries listed are cap values):
Players making 6 million or more: Pitt: 2, Wash: 1
5-6 million: Pitt: 3, Wash: 2
4-5 million: Pitt: 4, Wash: 2
3-4 million: Pitt: 1, Wash: 4
2-3 million: Pitt: 2, Wash: 3
1-2 million: Pitt: 16, Wash: 13
Exactly where is this “we spread the money around” argument? How are we so ‘out of control’ with our spending versus you guys. This is with our Archueletta and Andre Carter mess-ups too. Imagine if we had a real GM.
Remember all the stuff about Randle El being a perfect example of how we don’t know how to sign people. Steelers are too smart to overpay a WR that kind of money, etc, etc?
Randle El: 1.4 million (32 catches, 351 yds, 3 td’s)
Cedrick Wilson (***** who?): 1.9 million (37 catches, 500 yds, 1 td)
You couldn’t afford both, so stuck with the mess-up and let the one you really wanted go and play it off like, ‘oh well we’re smart with our money’….get outta here, y’all just can’t work the cap like we can.
Other interesting tidbits:
The Redskins top 5 salaries consist of 3 OL, The Steelers top 5 salaries consist of 3 OL, etc…..but not the Chargers. Their highest paid OL is 8th on the list. A possible explanation into how they afford so many freakin stars on their team. LT, Gates, Rivers, D. Edwards, etc.
The Broncos also pay nothing for a great O-line but get raped by a 9.4 million dollar cap salary with Champ Bailey (is a shut down CB really worth it?) and 7 million to Jake the Snake AND another 7 million to Rod Smith. THAT is horrible cap management. ESPN should be criticizing these guys as much as they do us.
We suck. PIT just won a super bowl few years back.
You guys overpay for players past their primes or who don’t fit your team.
Our guys are brought up through the system via the draft…they pay their dues and we reward them. We don’t sign guys to outrageous contracts after they do well on some other team for 6 years and are looking for their big payday.
The Dolphins pay exorbitant amounts of money on players who are injured or have drug problems…
” You guys overpay for players past their primes or who don’t fit your team.
Our guys are brought up through the system via the draft…they pay their dues and we reward them. We don’t sign guys to outrageous contracts after they do well on some other team for 6 years and are looking for their big payday.”
Alright, I’ll try this again….
Rod Smith: 7 million
Jake Plummer: 7.3 million
Lenord Davis: 10 million
Favre: 12.6 million
Now THOSE are outrageous cap hits for guys past their prime, and Davis and Plummer never had a prime. Here are our guys you are talking about:
Andre Carter: 1.5 million
Adam Archuleta: 1.5 million
Randle El: 1.5 million
B. Lloyd: 1.5 million
I mean is that the outrageous prices you thought we were signing our guys too? The only mess-up we’ve kept around for longer than 3 years is Brunell, and his cap hit: 5.2 million. Which hurts, but nothing like what Denver, Arizona and other teams go through. Yet we get shyted on versus everyone else. We work the cap just fine and even better than Pittsburgh when you factor in the fact that we don’t even have a GM and bitch ass Vinny Cerrato is making decisions.
“We suck. PIT just won a super bowl few years back.”
Compared to Vinny Cerrato, yes Pittsburgh has better talent evaluation.
Oh and forgot to compare our mess-ups to the Steeler mess-ups:
Travis Kirsche: 2.1 million (averaged 5 tackles and 1 sack and 9 games started over THREE years with Pittsburgh)
Cedrick Wilson: 1.9 million, already mentioned him
Larry Foote: 1.6 million, this one hurts me personally but from what I’ve read he’s nothing more than an ‘average LB at best’.
Dan Krieder: 1.1 million, he’s a fullback.
And you had 2 kickers making over 1 million each, but I forget the situation 2 years ago with Reed…maybe he got hurt.
Kirschke sucks.
Cedrick Wilson has been the #2 WR on the team for 2 years. His stats aren’t anything because we don’t throw the ball. Still, during the Super Bowl run he was arguably our best WR. He’s a typical Steeler signing, not flashy, but as a WR he’s good enough for this system.
Larry Foote has started for YEARS on a team thats always one of the best defenses in the NFL.
Kreider is the best FB in the league, and it’s not even close.
And dude, you’re using FUZZY MATH. You’re not including their total salary, their signing bonuses and stuff. You’re sitting here throwing in Adam Archuleta to prop up your case saying he’s only making 1.5 million. That contract last year made him the highest paid safety in the history of the NFL.
Dude, cap salary is ALL THAT MATTERS. You’re making my point for me. The fact that he only counted 1.5 million and was the highest paid safety, amazing. You WISH you could pull that off to keep/buy top corners and top WR’s when you needed them (after Plex left) instead of having to draft Holmes and wait 2 years.
Foote is what he is…you can disguise his mediocrity with “he started on a top D” but I’m giving that to the system, Foote is replaceable from what I’ve read from bloggers who follow the Steelers…..and MBP said Foote sucks as well…which in Steeltown talk means he’s ‘just ok.’
Best FB? Why were the Seahawks getting that title? I mean I’ll give that to you fine…take it, I can’t argue FB unless I watch the games.
“Cedrick Wilson has been the #2 WR on the team for 2 years. His stats aren’t anything because we don’t throw the ball.”
Then why are you paying him almost 2 million? Spend that on a CB. Where you need the money to go. Or spend it on a “Slash” type guy who was WAY more valuable to your offense (A.R.E.).
I have never said FOOTE sucks… last year he and Haggans made up for Porter’s and Farrior’s down year. Dillweed, I would never say that about one of our starting LBs…they have been traditionally good to great. I don’t know where you are getting this from. The only people who I think suck on our D are our CBs, namely Townsend.
DILLWEED, you are using incredibly FUZZY math. You are missing one important thing in trying to compare the Steelers salary #s and the Skins salary #s. I’ll explain later.
Alright Florio. Are you going to come up in here and “adjust” Dillweed’s numbers based on your extensive history in trial law?
When we were talking about Michigan players….that’s when you said it…I mean if you want to retract that statement, you can. But bloggers have been saying it too:
JJCooper is a blogger like Mondesishouse, all he does primarily is follow Steelers football.
“But the Steelers have little depth behind inside linebackers James Farrior and Larry Foote, and Foote is athletically limited, so Timmons could split time with Foote, giving the Steelers more explosiveness, especially on inside blitzes. ”
…that about how Timmons may be moving inside according to your gods at PFT.com (it’ll lower sacks for Timmons and therefore incentive money and Woodley has been a beast at the outside so they are good there apparently.)
….I let you explain later, but if it’s “those guys are in year 1 of their contracts where our guys are in year 4 and 5″ then that won’t hold water. But that might not be where you going, it’s possible I’ve overlooked something else.
The Greek, you can’t possibly look at Dillweed’s argument and NOT see the holes.
Archuleta earned $5.6 million last year. He was a backup. Highest paid S in the NFL. He signed a 6 year 30 million dollar contract.
Ced Wilson earned under 2 million and was the #2 WR on a Super Bowl winning team. Wilson signed for $8 million over 4 years. That’s 2 mil a year.
Randle El got 7 years and up to $31 million. His cap hit is low right now (as far as the nflpa is concerned) but in 2 years his cap hit will be $4.0-$5.0 million. Once again a Redskin fan ignores the future for the present.
You’re comparing apples and oranges.
And the issue with the Skins and your owner is not your ability to get under the cap…it’s Dan Snyder’s love affair with spending INSANE amounts of money and is basically flushing it down the toilet. AND…many of your guys contracts are back-loaded so right now their cap hits aren’t all that huge. The guys like Plummer and Favre you listed above, they’re at the end of their contracts, making the MOST they’ll EVER make. Yet in order to make your argument, you compare their absolute highest hit total and compare them to the Skins contracts that are backloaded. FUZZY MATH my friend.
Everyone’s salary looks fudged when you talk about “cap hit” but that’s how GMs, agents, and teams make salaries work to make up a roster. You’re making an argument or making a case over something that’s not earthshattering. Of course you guys are under the cap or are not taking huge cap hits each season. Thats not the point. The point is you guys SPEND MORE MONEY than anyone on these insane contracts, you make bad football decisions, and you build your team/organization the wrong way.
Talk to me in 2 years when Randle El (your #3 or #4 wr)’s cap hit and base salary is $5 million and our #2 WR is at 1.9 million per season.
MBP, I just hope you follow through, cause whenever you say “I’ll comment later” it never happens. It may as well read “You’re wrong and I know why, but I’ll never tell.” Which is a smart strategy to have me go crazy and re-analyze everything and eventually send me into a schizophrenic state.
HAHA…no, my argument was the same one that you pointed out and Dagger just expanded on. It is the only argument necessary to ruin your argument.
You are comparing our spending vs the Skins based on the fact that we have a # of contracts at the end of their cycle, of course backloaded. However, the difference is that our players actually see the end of their contracts and as a result are a better value. See: Alan Faneca. We are paying a pro bowl guard $4m this year where as the going rate is a lot higher than that. Because we made this deal years ago, he is underpaid as a result. The Skins do the exact opposite. They cut contracts in their latter years, and see no value at the end of the contract.
Now you can’t tell me that you guys won’t take a cap hit when these guys are cut. How do you avoid the cap hit from the bonus which was spread out over a few years?
Keep bringing up Cedric Wilson. Its no matter to us. Sure he might be getting paid more than he needs be. I’ll take that one mistake cause it was calculated and within reason. We are only paying him $2m as you point out.
“you make bad football decisions”
Agreed….yes
We will RE-STRUCTURE A.R.E.’s contract…how many times do I have to say that? Unless he beasts out with Pro Bowl numbers he will NOT finish with 31 million. PROOF:
Contract for Michael Westbrook: 7 years, 18 million with NFL RECORD (in history mind you) BONUS: 5.6 million.
What Michael Westbrook was paid against the cap: 1st year: 2.7 million, 2nd year: 1.5 million
3rd Year: GONE
4th Year: GONE
5th Year: GONE
6th Year: GONE
7th Year: MOTHER F-er WAS GONE
How’s that for back-loaded? You see what happened right? We said sure, make a record bonus…yeah 7 years…with STIPULATIONS. And we acted on those stipulations….he was paid just over 2 million a year for 2 measly years. Next subject:
Jeramiah Trotter Contract: 7 years, 36 million
Jeramiah Trotter against the Cap: 1st year: 1.7 million, 2nd year: 1.5 million (with a 7 million dollar salary!)
3rd year: gone
4th year: gone
5th year: 12 million against the cap….kidding, he was gone
6th year: gone
7th year: gone
….and you get the point. Now, you see how friggin frustrating this quote is:
“Randle El got 7 years and up to $31 million. His cap hit is low right now (as far as the nflpa is concerned) but in 2 years his cap hit will be $4.0-$5.0 million. Once again a Redskin fan ignores the future for the present.”
What bonus did ARE get? How much of it is guaranteed?
11.5 million, divided by 7 is $1.64 million per year. However in our BACK-LOADED contract, we’ve already paid 5 million of that bonus in 2006…..why?
Because now he’s only owed 6.5 million over 6 years. So if we cut him, in say 2 years….we owe him NOTHING.
31 million dollars…get outta here, like he’s ever going to see that.
Randle El’s bonus was $11 million dollars.
Dillweed refuses to see the how the signing bonus comes into play when the discussion is about TOTAL OVERALL SPENDING.
DO NOT ERASE THAT Dagger….keep it up there please. You just got hammered.
Signing bonuses are paid out right when you sign the contract. They’re not split up over “many years”. You have to pay the full amount ASAP.
You cant say oh, we’ll sign you to an 80 million signing bonus and then pay a little bit each season and then not pay him at all when you cut him. It’s a signing bonus…he’s getting the money up front.
“DO NOT ERASE THAT Dagger….keep it up there please. You just got hammered”
No, I think you did.
….this is where I get condescending:
You are talking out your friggin ass. You pay it outright….oh poor Danny, but it’s divided over the length of the contract in terms of cap value….which is what the team cares about….we are arguing from the team’s p.o.v.
Now you can chose to pay a lot of that cap value in advance so that it hurts you later on, much less. The player is happy and ownership can cut his ass down the road with a much less cap hit.
Here, for example: Why did A.R.E.’s contract only count 5 million in bonus money for 2006, if he was due 11.5 million?
“You cant say oh, we’ll sign you to an 80 million signing bonus and then pay a little bit each season and then not pay him at all when you cut him.”
EXACTLY. The signing bonus can only be a certain percentage of the BASE SALARY. I think it’s like 30%….so you can’t sign a guy to nothing in base salary and 80 million dollars in bonus money.
owned.
That’s why they call it “guaranteed money” b/c it’s the signing bonus. Figuratively, You get it immediately.
wilson—$2 million guaranteed.
Randle El–$11.5 guaranteed.
What don’t you understand about this? Both teams can get out of their contracts with the players, you keep “bragging” about how you’ll cut ARE in a few years. Thats all fine and dandy but you paid 11.5 compared to our 2.
And if you do decide to keep him for 2 more years you will have paid him 11.5 PLUS each years salary…which is “low” now but in 2 years it’ll be 4-5 million. If we keep Wilson for 2 more years we will have paid him 2 million in bonus and 2 million for that season.
You’re still paying (in terms of OVERALL SPENDING) like $12-$16 million dollars more for your player. And that’s true with MANY MANY guys on your roster.
case closed.
“11.5 million, divided by 7 is $1.64 million per year. However in our BACK-LOADED contract, we’ve already paid 5 million of that bonus in 2006…..why?
Because now he’s only owed 6.5 million over 6 years. So if we cut him, in say 2 years….we owe him NOTHING.
31 million dollars…get outta here, like he’s ever going to see that. ”
Dillweed’s right, you can definitely spread the bonus over a few years. It’s what the Steelers did with Faneca’s bonus when then restructured his contract to make room for …can’t remember.
But Dillweed, if ARE got $5m upfront, then it counts against the cap for that year. And you are misleading everybody when you only say he accounted for $1.4m. Shoot, you talk about C. Wilson costing the Steelers $2m and underperforming. You guys spent $6.4m against the cap this year for a guy that only had 3 tds and 31 receptions. I can’t imagine how much that must anger you.
And sure you can say he won’t see the whole $31m, but he will see the rest of the bonus. And if that is spread over the remainder of the contract, he’ll still be on your books well after he is cut. That, my friend, is poor spending at its best. You still GUARANTEED this guy his $11m bonus, whereas C. Wilson’s contract isn’t guaranteed. And I assume that ARE’s salary might be partially guaranteed on top of the bonus.
You can’t just discuss salary when making this argument, you have to also tie in the bonus. Which destroys your whole facade that the Skins are fiscally responsible.
I stand corrected…I guess we guaranteed C. Wilson $2m…sorry.
DILLWEED, YOUR VERY FIRST SENTENCE AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE TO OPEN UP THE THREAD WAS AS FOLLOWS:
“You know how Steeler fans on the board brag about their front office’s fiscal responsibility? Exactly where is this “we spread the money around” argument? How are we so ‘out of control’ with our spending versus you guys.”
MBP and I just showed you. You want to know where you are “so out of control with your spending” as you mention in your opening post…well…here it is: TOTAL OVERALL SPENDING. Base salary, cap hit over the years, signing bonus/guaranteed money. It’s all part of the equation. I showed you how you are insane with the spending. ARE is getting $11 million and Wilson is getting $2. I could go on and on.
“we are arguing from the team’s p.o.v.”
There’s nothing to discuss from the team’s POV. Everyone is under the cap, each season every team makes it work, and everyone fields a full roster. Thats the end of it. The argument isn’t about who gets guys under the cap or not….the argument is who does outlandish and foolish spending. Cap hit and base salary are the lesser of the 3 parts of the equation that make up a players salary situation.
A month after signing with their teams, the Redskins wrote a check for 11.5 and the Steelers wrote a check for 2. You don’t seem to understand that. Screw the cap hit, screw the base salary for a minute and wrap your mind around the GUARANTEED money. There’s no getting around paying that to the player. No cutting, fudging, retiring, or injury will interfere with that number.
Whether the bonus is paid immediately or over a few seasons….doesn’t really matter.
IT GETS PAID. IT’S GUARANTEED.
The signing bonus blows Dillweed’s argument away. There is nothing he can say anymore. You opened the thread asking about your team’s fiscal responsibility and spending. You didn’t say “hey look at our cap hit this season”.
You’re now trying to re-work your initial argument b/c you forgot the whole signing bonus thing when you made your initial post.
GAME OVER.
“But Dillweed, if ARE got $5m upfront, then it counts against the cap for that year. And you are misleading everybody when you only say he accounted for $1.4m.”
Straight From the USA Today database:
2006, Redskins: Base Salary: $585,000, Bonus: $5,000,000, Other incentives: $2,310, Total Salary: $5,587,310, cap value $1,587,310
“And sure you can say he won’t see the whole $31m”
Base Salary never is counted, until the year begins. So if you owe a guy 12 million in year 4, you cut him and that 12 mil is gone. HOWEVER, there is a 30% rule in which you cannot increase base salary by more than 30% per year….as to prevent extreme backloading.
“but he will see the rest of the bonus. And if that is spread over the remainder of the contract, he’ll still be on your books well after he is cut.”
After June 1, the team can stretch their salary cap liability over the next 2 seasons. i.e. we now owe Randle El 6.5 mil over 6 years (can’t prorate a bonus longer than 6 years anyways) so after 2 years he will probably have been paid IN FULL, HOWEVER…let’s just say he gets paid 8.28 million up to that point (5 mil already paid + 1.64 million year 2 + 1.64 million year 3.) We would then owe him 3.2 million in garunteed (don’t listen to Ksizzles.) So, we would most likely cut him AFTER June 1st and then pay that over 2 years, meaning 1.6 mil a year.
11.5 mil over 4 years plus base salary over 4 years = WAY less than the 7 years for 31 million you guys are arguing against.
“You guys spent $6.4m against the cap this year for a guy that only had 3 tds and 31 receptions.”
No we didn’t.
“I can’t imagine how much that must anger you.”
No, losing to Ohio State 3 years in a row angers me. Things that never happened tend to not anger me.
We’re not arguing the 31 mil. We’re arguing the 11.5+ vs the 2. You overpay for players. Screw the “funny money” stuff. Just compare signing bonuses and that alone will make our argument for us. It runs rampant through your entire roster.
Dillweed, good stuff though.
You guys are Republicans man….you’re trying talk loud and close the argument. I’m like Al Gore shooting Graphs on Global Warming at you guys while you get up and are like “well it’s cyclical, wa! VERBS! ADJECTIVES!”
I’m like…no it’s not, not like this…look at this graph…we’re heating the earth, see?
“reading is for nerds…we talk loudly and post big pictures and people listen…now go away poverty stricken student….and we’re raising your tuition”
I have conceded that ARE isn’t D-Jack or Reggie Wayne….BUT, that’s on our GM which I said sucked. Our cap guru who I’m defending here….is a beast. Plain and simple.
“We’re not arguing the 31 mil. We’re arguing the 11.5+ vs the 2. You overpay for players. Forget the “funny money” bologna just compare signing bonuses and that alone will make our argument for us. It runs rampant through your entire roster. ”
That is indicative of overall bad spending. I’m happy for you and your team that you manage to get under the cap number. Your cap guru is a gentleman and a scholar. But you spend good money after bad and you are the more sloppy than any other team when it comes to judging talent and paying that talent.
Can I get a GAME OVAR?
“We’re not arguing the 31 mil.”
Okay…that is a GINORMOUS point you’ve just conceded. You realize that? I mean you have been using those inflated contracts as the crux of your argument since 2005…yes we can get a game over.
You paid less in bonus money to a WR that nobody wanted vs. a WR the Bears, amongst others were offering 8 million in bonus money too. Was ARE that good? no. That’s where Cerrato, our final say in talent evaluation, comes in. Thank God he’s been fired.
A really good thread, I must say, but isn’t the whole topic really friggin retarded? I mean Steelers sucked last year but every year they are good so who cares about how much the spend or don’t spend. They have a good team, and at end of day, it’s not coming from the fan’s pocket. Redskins, on other hand, suck endlessly. So to bring up how they spend is irrelevant right?
“We said sure, make a record bonus…yeah 7 years…with STIPULATIONS”
I re-read this thread and this line made me laugh. WITH STIPULATIONS….that’s a real funny end of a sentence. You can say anything you want to somebody and then devalue everything you just said by adding…WITH STIPULATIONS.
The Greek is Greek…with stipulations. WA!
C-Note, I disagree. Evaluating how your team spends their money is very relevant to us as diehard fans. Neither of our teams won the Super Bowl last year, which means our teams need to improve. Teams can’t improve if their money is tied up into underperforming players or players who have been cut. In a sport like baseball, your point might apply a little better, more so with big market teams. But in a sport like football, when spending is controlled, your front office is just as important as your players.
It looks like I’m a little late to the party, but I’ll throw in my two cents if I may. From a purely financial standpoint, the Steelers can’t even touch the Redskins. Snyder and the Redskins franchise actually get an incredible return on their investment. How good? They’re THE most profitable sports franchise in the entire U.S. – one of the most profitable in the entire world.
So, perhaps the Redskins have learned to game the salary cap system to maximize their earning potential. As a fan, I’d say that that sucks, because I’d rather that they just straight up focus on winning, but we’ve all got to be pragmatists. This is the U.S. after all, and EVERYthing is about the bottom line.
Is BLUECHIPS one of the most underrated sports movies of all time?
i think so.
I loved the cameos of players on other teams in that movie, Bobby Hurley, Calbert, how about Easy E Eric Riley, 6th man on those Fab Five teams even makes an appearance. My fave scene is when they are figuring out Tony shaved points and then he runs in the dorm party and confronts him.
Dont forget the cameos from the other coaches on the recruiting trail. Tark the Shark, Jim Boeheim, and others.