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Crosby vs Ovechkin vs Malkin vs Semin
By Dagger | September 27, 2007
Let’s take a look at Crosby vs Ovechkin after 2 years of play. The following stats are their averages over the past 2 seasons.
After the Crosby vs Ovechkin stats, you can find 2006-2007 season stats comparing Crosby/Malkin/Ovechkin/Semin.
With this comparison, my intention is not to solve the great debate as to which one is the better hockey player. There is enough room in the NHL for both of them and the success of one does nothing to take away from the accomplishments or perceived status or ability of the other. This is not Peyton Manning vs Ryan Leaf, nobody was forced to choose one or the other, they weren’t even drafted in the same draft class. (On another note, Malkin and Ovechkin were drafted in 2004 and Crosby was drafted in 2005. There were a FEW scouts that had Malkin rated higher on their board than Ovechkin and said that 5-10 years down the road, Malkin will turn out to be a better overall player than Ovechkin. Why are we not debating Malkin vs Ovechkin?).
OK, back to the task at hand. In my mind, the age issue (Crosby is 20, Ovie is 22) and the Pro Experience issue (Crosby has 2 yrs and Ovechkin has 6 years) are often overlooked when people compare the two. So, just for fun, after two years of play, look at the stats below. A Capitals fan will NEVER, EVER convince me that AO is better than Crosby and I’m willing to bet that no Caps fan will ever think that Crosby is better than AO. So instead of reading the following charts and screaming at your monitor, “Yeah! I knew Ovechkin was a cherry-picker!!” or “Crosby….look at all those PIMs….all unsportsmanlike for crying on the ice I bet!” just appreciate the magnitude of these stats from two guys that aren’t even close to being as good as they are going to be in a few years time.
Crosby vs Ovechkin
Head to Head Matchup (8 games)
While both players deny that anything “extra” is on the line when they play each other, we all know that’s not true. Crosby has dominated the head-to-head matchup both individually and on the scoreboard. Would I be going WAY too far if I were to suggest that as a Caps fan, one would be a bit concerned that in “big games” or pressure situations, Ovechkin can’t rise to the occasion? Ovechkin posted 5 points in 8 Olympic games in 2006. Malkin put up 6 points in 7 games. Crosby was left off the Team Canada squad. (don’t get me started on that). In the playoffs this past year, Malkin had 4 points in 5 games while Crosby had 5 points in 5 games. Ovechkin has not yet made it to the playoffs. That could change this season.
Click “Read More” to see the 4-way stats.
*These stats are all rounded to the nearest whole number
And remember, this is their per season average, after 2 seasons…
Ovechkin played Pro Hockey in the Russian Superleague for 4 seasons before his first NHL season in 2005-2006.
Crosby played in the Quebec Major Junior League for 2 seasons before entering the NHL in the same season as Ovechkin.
I bring this up because not only is Ovechkin 2 years older than Sidney Crosby, but he was playing professionally with 30 year old men for a full 4 years while Crosby was playing against 15 and 16 year old high school kids. In my opinion, Ovechkin came into the league more experienced and ready to step right into the pro game. The transition wasn’t seamless, obviously, but his jump to the NHL was far easier than Sid’s. Also, does this mean that Ovechkin is closer to “maxing-out” than Crosby is….. due to their age and experience?
No real surprises here. Crosby is a Center and Ovechkin is a Wing. In their first NHL seasons, their “quality of teammates” were about the same. This past season, Crosby’s supporting cast was a tad better, but Crosby still doesn’t have a real good scoring winger on his line. If I wanted to explain Ovechkin’s high goal totals, I could point to the fact that he has an amazing shot, has breakaway speed, and shoots the puck more than anybody in the history of the sport (that’s not necessarily a bad thing). In order to explain Crosby’s high assist totals, well, he’s the best passer in the game and sometimes passes up shooting opportunities to set-up a teammate.
Crosby has the lead in points here. Frankly, I think Crosby is the better overall player. Ovie is the better goal-scorer, Crosby the better passer, and Crosby is the better defensive player by a mile.
Remember, this is PER SEASON. In his first 2 NHL seasons Ovechkin has 817 shots. Crosby has 528.
Crosby plays tenacious defense on each and every shift, which helps explain some of his PIMs. He gets called for the occasional hook or trip in the process.
Ovechkin has the ability to play good defense when he puts forth the effort, but he doesn’t always backcheck the way you would like to see.
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*Side Note:
Since 2004, the average draft position for the Pittsburgh Penguins has been 6.4
Since 2004, the average draft position for the Washington Capitals has been 6.0
So nobody post any comments about how the Penguins have tanked to get Staal, Crosby, Malkin, etc….if you look at the past 4 years, the Capitals have actually drafted higher than the Penguins (higher meaning closer to the #1 overall spot). I only bring this up because, as a Pens fan, you have no idea of how many people accuse our team of finishing seasons poorly just to get a better draft pick. That might fly in the NFL, but in the NBA and NHL where you have a lottery system, finishing last doesn’t guarantee the best draft slot.
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Crosby/Malkin vs Ovechkin/Semin
Stats: 2006-2007 Season
Goals
Crosby 36
Malkin 33
Semin 38
Ovechkin 46
*Again, both Caps players are Wingers while the Pens players are Centers. When talking about Malkin/Crosby’s skill sets, most scouts (pre-draft and now) comment on their playmaking ability and not their scoring ability.
Assists
Crosby 84
Malkin 52
Semin 35
Ovechkin 46
*Yeah, the whole positional thing again….
Points
Crosby 120
Malkin 85
Semin 73
Ovechkin 92
*Malkin, in his rookie season, put up more points than Semin, who had 1/2 of an NHL season under his belt coming into last season. Also, Malkin is surprisingly close to Ovechkin in point totals, I didn’t even realize this until I started crunching the numbers. Hmmm… And as you can see, Crosby had an unbelievable season and won the NHL scoring title.
Shots
Crosby 250
Malkin 242
Semin 243
Ovechkin 392
*For very good/superstar players, the 220-260 range seems about right. Ovechkin’s 392 SOG is FAR and away the highest total in the NHL.
In some sports, a guy who shoots too much is a bad thing. In hockey, it’s not so clear-cut. Pucks on goal lead to rebounds, tip-ins, and obviously, goals. I’m not going to pull the “Ovechkin only piles up Goals because he shoots so much” card. There are times when I see him shoot and I’m like “what???? are you thinking?” and other times I find myself saying “I wish somebody on our team would shoot that much to generate more loose pucks in the crease.” Ilya Kovalchuk is another guy that shoots a ton, but man, he has a cannon. Watching ATL on the powerplay is scary with him firing pucks from the high slot.
Plus/Minus
Crosby 10
Malkin 2
Ovechkin -19
Semin -7
*Pittsburgh had a better team last year, but their defense was pretty lackluster. Crosby plays great defense when on the ice, and Ovechkin doesn’t. Don’t even try to argue that point. Malkin is a bit lazy at times, but a lot of young Europeans come into the league and have to learn how to play good D.
Penalty Mins
Crosby 120
Malkin 80
Ovechkin 52
Semin 90
*Malkin takes some lazy penalties. Unlike Crosby, his penalties aren’t for hustle and tenacious D gone too far. His are lazy hooks and obstructions. If I were Don Cherry, this is where I would make a remark about Russians cherry-picking and not playing a solid all around game. I would then show a video of some junior team from Saskatoon and I’d ramble for 5 minutes about playing the game the “right way”.
Games
Crosby 79
Malkin 78
Ovechkin 82
Semin 77
*Crosby had a groin issue and Malkin missed the start of the season and the preseason due to a shoulder injury.
With a better supporting cast surrounding all of these players for the upcoming season it will be very interesting to see how things unfold for these 4 talented players. I’ll see you right here on this blog on September 27, 2008, and we’ll do this all over again. Next time, the picture at the top of the page will feature Crosby holding the cup. Ha!
Topics: Hockey, NHL, Pittsburgh Penguins, Sports, Washington Capitals | 59 Comments »
September 27th, 2007 at 7:41 am
Oh man, you WOULD post this on a day that I have to leave for meetings and don’t even have time to read until late at night haha.
September 27th, 2007 at 8:09 am
Ha. Yea, in order to temporarily avoid the backlash of the caps #1 fan. Sombrero.
September 27th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
Hopefully Ovechkin’s incredible number of shots will decrease this season as he 1) continues to learn the pro game, and 2) plays with better linemates. The lack of quality NHL players on the Caps last season might have forced him into thinking that he had to score all the time on his own, which when you think about it, isn’t that far from the truth.
September 27th, 2007 at 12:45 pm
I would say that Crosby is a better player than Ovechkin but I will always take a dominate center over a dominate winger because the center can do more things with the puck, set up linemates, faceoffs, etc. However, you didn’t factor in Ovechkin’s hitting (a big part of his game). I would say Ovechkin is a unique player in that he’s a goal scorer that like to hit. From that perspective, Ovechkin might be a more entertaining player to watch (if you like hitting). There is no doubt that the Pens have handled the Caps over the years and right now are a better overall team. We’ll see if the Caps can close the gap this year.
September 27th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
Crosby better defensively? I’ve seen him give up on more backchecks than he actually participates in. Crosby can be reliable defensively when he wants to be, but he doesn’t seem to want to be much. He certainly isn’t in the same class as far as defensive skill, though. The PIMs total you point to as “proof” of Crosby’s defensive prowess might have more weight if he was prone to penalties in the defensive zone – he’s not. He tends to take those in the offensive zone after turnovers. That’s not defense, that’s laziness.
September 27th, 2007 at 2:27 pm
While some of your points are well formed, IMHO your fanaticism for your team prevents this from being a truly objective comparison.
Of the top 10 players in the NHL that scored 40 or more goals, all but one were Wingers. Why? A winger’s job, generally speaking, is to score goals.
Of the top 8 players in the NHL that dished out 60 assists or more, all by one were Centers. Why? A Center’s job, generally speaking, is to pass to the Wingers. It is easier to garner an assist than to score a goal and because of this, the Center will usually end up with more points (see next point below). Additionally, they carry more defensive responsibility and are usually above the crease between the circles in case of turn-overs.
Of the top 7 players that had 100 points or more, the top 3 were Centers as were 4 out of the 7. Only 1 of the Center had more than 36 Goals.
Comparing a goal-scoring winger and a playmaking Center in the Points department is never a fair comparison because the Center should, based on his position, rack up more points.
Additionally, the OVechkin vs. Crosby comparison is unfair for specifically last year because Ovechkin played on a bottom-feeding team whereas Orosby played on a high-seeded playoff team.
In the end, I agree, this year will be a more fair comparison but still, if based on points, it’s still skewed.
September 27th, 2007 at 2:39 pm
If you are going to sit there with a straight face and argue that Ovie is better than Crosby defensively then I’m not going to waste my time with a longer response than this: you’re crazy. If you want I can post DIRECT QUOTES from each organizations coach backing that up…..
Yes, I am biased. As I mention in the opening paragraph, this isn’t an effort to resolve this issue “once and for all” it’s simply pointing at the stats. Since we are on a blog using the written word, the only thing we really can do is use stats. I would love to write a few PP each about watching each guy in person but that is all just opinion. The above entry is simply a side-by-side look at their stats, with Malkin/Semin thrown in for an added bonus. You’re not supposed to read this and say “SEE!!! Crosby IS better!!” You’re supposed to say “hmmmm…interesting….lets see what happens this season”.
September 27th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
Frank-
That’s great info. Well done.
In my previous comments I’m sure you can appreciate what I’m trying to get across here. The comparison is SOOO hard to make. I’d prefer to compare Malkin to Ovechkin actually. This is a debate that simply can’t be “solved” right now but the one thing we can do is look at various numbers. Stats don’t always tell the whole story, i agree 100%.
There are many Caps fans who will read about 10 lines of this entry and get mad, then click away. I anticipate then of course. But if you can make your way through this post all the way down to the Semin vs Ovie vs Crosby vs Malkin comparison you will my true intention is just to “take a look” and not to slam the Caps.(not that I’m against slamming the caps, since im a pens fan….but there is a time and a place for that and my intention in this here post was not to alienate ovechkin-lovers).
September 27th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
Hits? One player out of these 4 can change the momentum of a game without touching the puck. IMO that’s a HUGE part of the equation that isn’t addressed here…
September 27th, 2007 at 3:19 pm
WIthout looking, I think Ovechkin is top 10 in hits.
Great point.
I dont think anyone will be comparing these two in 10 years time talking about hits, but yes, Ovie can lay some big checks. Some illegal ones too. :)
September 27th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
You’re not looking at stats when you say that Crosby is better defensively. What, +/- on a 100+ point team versus that on a 70 point team? Randomly declaring PIMs as a positive thing defensively? That’s not analyzing stats, that’s searching for ways to justify an opinion.
You completely avoid other stats, such as hits (which Ovechkin dominates at – yet comes through with much lower PIM totals).
While you throw in nice little disclaimers about this not being about proving Crosby better, one need look no further than your graphs (how is 82 games three times as many as 80? How is 111 points three times as many as 99?) to know that this is nothing but chest-beating about how much better Crosby supposedly is? When you make these poorly constructed arguments about it, it does nothing but detract from both since it makes it look like you have to make stuff up or at least selectively represent the truth to make Crosby look as good as possible.
September 27th, 2007 at 3:28 pm
You think I resized the graphs to prove a point? LOL at the 82 vs 80 comment. Odd, I must say, looks fishy indeed, but not on purpose. Dont know why/how that happened honestly. Hopefully ppl can read the numbers and not rely soley on how how the bar is.
September 27th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
And…every statement below a graph is not an attempt to justify the stats or explain them or pump up Sidney and bash AO. Just needed to put them in some sort of context. Couldnt have 20 charts with not text.
Notice how zero Pens fans are in here sticking up for Crosby. We aren’t defensive over this. Caps fans are the ones with the inferiority complex.
September 27th, 2007 at 3:44 pm
Why would a Pens fan be here sticking up for Crosby in defense of a puff piece about him? What, you weren’t generous enough?
September 27th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
A Puff Piece?? haha
Man, I could have GONE OFF if that was my intention.
I gave AO plenty of props. Like i said, you dont need to bash one to prop up the other. They’re both good. There is enough room in the NHL for both of them, no?
September 27th, 2007 at 4:11 pm
I can wait until our resident Caps fan “SOMBRERO” comes in here. He hates the fact that I love the Pens. I want his take on this whole thing.
He is posts on the WashCaps message board as well so he is one of you guys through and through. He might tear me a new one later today.
Should be interesting to see. We will have many back-and-forths this season i believe.
September 27th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
I’m not sure where to begin with this …… what are you trying to prove? That a center has more points than a winger, that a player on a 100plus point team has a higher plus/minus than a player on a 70 point team, that you can manipulate statistics? Crosby is a supremely gifted player in his own right. You do not need to tear down Ovechkin (or any other player) to prop him up. Frankly doing so makes a mockery of Crosby’s accomplishments.
September 27th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
This is for BH:
I think he was clear in his post that he wasnt trying to “prove” anything.
He also mentioned about 5 times in the post and in this comment section that nobody needs to be torn down to prop the other up as there is “enough room in the NHL for the both of them”
I am a Penguin fan as well but I’m not taking sides here, just pointing to the fact that he addressed all o the issues you brought up a few times. Did you read any of the discussion?
September 27th, 2007 at 5:35 pm
I take this post for what it is. A simple side-by-side comparison of two good, perhaps great, players. I can’t understand why all the Caps fans are getting so defensive, why they are getting their panties all bunched up.
September 27th, 2007 at 5:37 pm
I don’t know schaisse about hockey, but, in the interest of fairness, Dagger did a post about Ovechkin not too long ago: http://www.postgameheroes.com/?p=190 and he didn’t slam him at all. I dunno.
You guys need to simma down. Dagger, look what you started! You attempted to compare these 4 guys side by side and OF COURSE it turns into the Crosby vs Ovechkin debate. Typical caps and pens fans. Again, I’m not a huge hockey fan but I can see you guys have quite the rivalry.
September 27th, 2007 at 6:04 pm
Very interesting stuff! As a Caps fan, it easy pick out your pro-Pens viewpoint, but that didn’t take away from what I think is a good summation, and a great discussion point for Caps fans, Pens fans, and hockey fans in general. And rest assured, if I wrote a similar thread, it would be impossible for me to not allow my pro-Caps point of view in.
I would not argue Ovie is the better defender between the two, but I would also not say (nor did I remember reading that you said) that Crosby was a great defender. I’d put it like this, if Ovie is a pig as a defender, then Crosby is a pig with lipstick..and having to choose between the two, you gotta go with the pretty one:o)
Seriously though, as someone else mentioned, centers generally have more of a defensive responsibility, and I’d say that shows when you look at these two; the goals to assist differentals seem to show the same based on the “position played” comparison. And the totals for each prove that they are both worth the price of admission. So yes, I think there is room for both…actually all four (don’t wanna leave out the other two Red Army guys:). And I look forward to many years of good battles between these guys.
Thanks again, this was good reading! And I’ll leave you with this thought. Assuming both have long, productive careers, they will be HOFer’s primarily for being great offensive talents, and not for their ability to keep others from scoring. And thank goodness for that! Imagine all of that offensive talent being wasted on a career of tireless back checking!
Be well.
JB
September 27th, 2007 at 6:10 pm
JB,
are u single? wanna go out some time?
Joking! But man, you are the only Cap fan thus far that seems to “GET IT”. Do you know how PRO-Crosby I could be if I really wanted to? I admitted my bias and said I wanted to share my statistical breakdown. I live in DC as a pens fan. I know both side of the issue and I know the rivalry involved…i knew i was walking a very thin line here and i appreciate your comments.
A simple statistical breakdown with a few of my comments. And where else have you seen Malkin and Semin also thrown into the discussion? I felt that was pretty unique so I thought Pens/Caps people would enjoy. From the discussion going on here and on “other boards” about this thread I think I accomplished my goal but I managed to ruffle a few feathers in the process. That was unavoidable though.
Again, this aint Ryan Leaf vs Peyton Manning. I don’t get why this is such a popular comparison. They weren’t drafted in the same year. AO is two years older. Different teams. Different positions. DIfferent styles. I just wanted to drop some statistical knowledge PGH-style! lol.
September 27th, 2007 at 7:15 pm
LOL! My wife just got a huge laugh outta that!
I am sure you knew exactly what some would submit back to you when you were researching and posting this. And truthfully, those folks are entitled to their thoughts just the same as you and I, so it’s all good times.
I did like the Semin/Malkin angle. Not too many folks outside of DC ever gave any thought about Semin prior to last season. But the Caps faithful have had high hopes out of him since he was drafted, 1st round (13th overall) in 2002, and when he had is 52 game cup o’ coffee with the Caps in 2003-2004. Jagr was here then, and I seem to remember him talking about how good he thought Semin may be, but I may be mistaken.
Anyway, I recall Malkin getting some great pre draft press, though it was overshadowed by Ovie at that time, but he certainly proved to be worthy of being dubbed the “best young player not playing in the NHL” during Ovie and Sid’s rookie year.
What can I say, I am as anxious to hate how good Sid and Evgeni are as Pens as I am to love how good Ovie and Semin are as Caps for years to come:o) Only if some way the Pens GM would lose his mind and trade them to the Caps? HMMMM?
Man, you probably just threw up…sorry:o)
September 27th, 2007 at 11:56 pm
Okay. Definitely Pens friendly, but you pretty much say as much so no biggie.
At one point in the comments I think you said something to the extent of “If I wanted to be more Pens friendly…” Which is strangely an angle that I see a lot of Pittsburgh area sports fans take about the Steelers as well. Some sort of East Coast/Midwest inferiority thing? Seriously though, I’m curious I really have heard that kind of argument a lot. It’s a weak argument style, btw.
This just brings me back to late-eighties early nineties playoff hockey at the Cap Center. The best thing about that era of Caps was that they put Lemeiux and Jagr on the ice constantly. I loved it and Mario whined the whole way through. Our constant choking was worth seeing his face live and in color during those games. Rarely do you get to see a pro athlete show how frustrated he is as Mario did. I was actually at MCI Center for the longest overtime game ever (at that point). Heartbreaking.
This year will say a lot about the margin between the Caps and Pens besides just Ovie and Crosby. Last year is pretty meaningless, especially from a Caps perspective.
I like the post, btw.
September 27th, 2007 at 11:58 pm
Sorry, you actually said:
“Do you know how PRO-Crosby I could be if I really wanted to? ”
But, still.
September 28th, 2007 at 12:25 am
Yeah, I was just trying to reinforce that i was trying to be careful not to cross the line too far. As a Pens fan caps fans KNOW that I could sway WAY far into the Crosby direction but I did my best not to. That is all that I meant by that comment. I wanted to get across that I tried my hardest to stay towards the middle, thats all. If a Caps fan did this post I’d expect him to lean AO’s way as well. It’s only natural. I wanted people to acknowledge that I at least tried to come off as “not overly biased”.
hey, did you see that Eklund at hockeybuzz.com has picked the Caps to finish THIRD OVERALL in the eastern conference??? wow. Picked the Pens to finish 2nd.
Good comment Cornelius. That playoff game…wow. PETR NEDVED! harmless looking wrist shot. I went to a playoff game that series and had ice thrown at me. haha. bastards.
September 28th, 2007 at 12:47 am
“I’m not trying to bring your intelligence into question. You’re an idiot.”
That’s roughly the equivalent of your disclaimer. While you may think you can bring the noise as far as pro-Crosby propaganda goes, you’ve pretty much exhausted every statistical angle that favors him while leaving out every one that doesn’t, and throwing in the false “better defensively because I say so” argument pretty much puts you out of resources. You made the BS age argument and “professional seasons” crap. You chose to leave out the years they’ve been playing hockey (Crosby has been playing longer, FYI).
Yeah, the ammunitions been spent and it still doesn’t hold up as anything but propaganda presenting only the positive side for Crosby as far as the areas in which he stacks up against Ovechkin (including only goals in Ovechkin’s favor likely because it would be even more transparent than it already is).
You want to know why it gets Caps fans’ hackles up? Ask one. I’m a Habs fan and I can tell you that this is nothing more than propaganda. You wouldn’t have bothered to play the “don’t try to argue that Ovechkin’s defense is as good” card if you didn’t know you have no grounds for the argument. Ovechkin is just better defensively. Maybe some day you’ll take in the big picture, and actually use stats instead of manipulating them to your ends. Then you might have a write-up worth reading.
September 28th, 2007 at 1:42 am
You’re right. If there was one thing my entry was lacking it was STATS. LOL!
From Scott Burnside article:
Defense
This may be the one area where there is a distinct difference between the two players in terms of their evolution. Ovechkin is a work in progress defensively.
“There’s some subtle things in defensive-zone coverage or defensive-zone entries and reading the rush or just his percentage of executing the system that is a lot higher,” Capitals coach Glen Hanlon said. “He has a lot better understanding, his stick positioning is much better. Alexander wants to do anything he can to win the Stanley Cup. He understands that for him to play better or to make those reads we’ll put him on the ice in critical times. As he becomes better at the reads, he plays in more critical defensive situations.
“We’re not trying to build a Selke winner here by any means.”
“He’s really bought into stopping in his own zone [as opposed to] blowing the zone early,” Evason added.
Atlanta coach Bob Hartley figures Crosby, who is a very solid plus-9 after finishing last season at a minus-1 (which was pretty much a miracle on a bad Penguins team), is in the process of mastering virtually every element of his game.
September 28th, 2007 at 1:44 am
FROM THE WASHINGTON POST: about AO’s struggles on defense
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/23/AR2007012301458.html?nav=rss_sports
————
“It’s crucial that he learns to play two ways,” said Messier, who won five Stanley Cups with the Edmonton Oilers and another with the New York Rangers. “It’s going to make him a player that’s dangerous in every situation because the coach can rely on him, especially in big games, and regardless of whether it’s short-handed, the power play or the end of a game. A guy with that talent who can play in every situation, at crucial points in the game, that’s a huge plus for his team.”
“If it’s a 2-1 hockey game in the third period, you’re not ever above the puck, ever,” Hanlon said. “You can’t assume someone else is going to get the puck out. If you aren’t exactly where you are supposed to be, it throws everything into chaos. That’s why when the game is on the line, there are certain guys who are out there. We want Ovie to be one of those guys, every single night.”
Capitals goaltender Olie Kolzig, who often has the clearest view of who is in the proper position, was more critical of his teammate.
“It’s not blowing the zone to get a head start on a defenseman,” Kolzig said. “It’s not about cheating. It’s playing the system and playing it right in his own end. He’s made strides, but then he takes a step back. He’s got to remind himself every game that it’s defensive zone first. Because you win championships with defense. And he’s the kind of guy who can help us win a championship, but he’s got to be committed in his own end.”
Although Hanlon praised Ovechkin earlier this season for his progress, that progress has been inconsistent and at times has appeared to plateau, frustrating both coach and player. But his attitude has remained positive as he struggles to adapt to the North American game, which puts more emphasis on systems play and defense.
“I want [to] improve my defense,” Ovechkin said. “That’s my goal. I try to concentrate and do my best in defensive zone, because that’s what Coach tell me and I trust Coach. If I don’t listen, I don’t play much. For me, team results is more important than score goals. I want to win Stanley Cup, but it’s hard. I must pressure myself to do that.”
September 28th, 2007 at 1:57 am
From ON FROZEN BLOG
http://www.onfrozenblog.com/2007/04/09/caps-season-overview-a-work-in-progress/
———————-
Without question Alexander Ovechkin is the face and future of this organization, but his sophomore season brought struggles and frustrations few of us would have imagined last June, when we watched him best Sidney Crosby for the Calder Trophy. Eric McErlain last week well chronicled AO’s season of comparative discontent. He is one of the five most gifted hockey players on the planet today, but his defensive game, underscored by his -19 rating, has a long way to go. An important reminder: he is still a very young hockey player, and developing consistent defensive play takes time.
September 28th, 2007 at 1:58 am
Any more stats or quotes you would like me to dig up so I can shoot more holes into your comments? Those quotes are from WASHINGTON blogs by the way.
If you’re going to try to argue come with some facts or quotes or stats or something. Don’t say “I’m Jean Phillipe from Montreal and I think your blog entry is propoganda”
tell me or show me how/why Crosby is worse on D. I’m not trying to compare the two and “PICK A WINNER” but here you are saying that is the purpose of my post, which is incorrect. I have no problem saying Ovechkin is a better goal-scorer. I’m not here to fight this argument either because is CANT be won be either side. We won’t know the answer to this question for another few years.
You think on a random Wednesday morning in September I just decided to say “ok, I’m gonna tell everyone why Sid is better than AO”?? Like I would want to open that can of worms on a site where 1/2 our readers are Washington people and 1/2 our readers are Pittsburgh people? I wanted to show you compiled stats “together” for all 4 players, in one place. That was the goal. Mission accomplished.
September 28th, 2007 at 2:28 am
Daggger – I am wasted and am reading this fully for the first time but I can not wait to soberly write a retort. Your stats you picked were so cherry picked its not funny. You’re still my boy though. Even if you’re a pens fan.
September 28th, 2007 at 2:32 am
oh man, as a hockey nut, i can’t wait to wake up and read this stuff sober so i can respond. I know better than to try to now. I think this may be the most discussed thread we have ever had and like I said, as a hockey nut I love it. Even if it began with crosby sniffing. I haven’t even shared it with the caps message board yet.
September 28th, 2007 at 2:39 am
Oh, it’s all over the Caps board. Trust me.
Cant wait for your response. You should make it a blog post..not a comment.
ALSO—you say i cherry-picked stats? What else is there besides:
goals, assists, points, SOG, +-, Age, Years Exp, PIM, games played, wins, losses. What am i missing? Hits?
September 28th, 2007 at 7:50 am
Those aren’t comments about his overall defensive skill, those are more comments about his quickness to get out of the defensive zone to start the rush. That’s why they talk about his play within the system. That’s not a concern with the Pens because they barely have a defensive system. On a skill to skill comparison of the two in their own zone (or on the forecheck, where Ovechkin is a beast and Crosby non-existent), Crosby is the also-ran. Keep reaching.
Let’s see, where else are you cherry-picking stats or making things up to favor Crosby? How about the head-to-head between the two teams. Crosby putting up inordinately high numbers against the Caps is the antithesis of showing up in big games, how about that? Washington finished well out of the playoff picture last season, so those games were not big games in any sense for the Pens. That Crosby put up those kinds of points against Washington (not to mention the points he put up against Philadelphia) means that he averaged lower point totals in the games that really mattered. That’s not stepping up in the big games at all, that’s taking advantage of the lighter portions of the schedule to inflate stats. Not clutch at all.
Here’s another! Draft history. Your argument that the Pens didn’t tank is based solely on the fact that they made the playoffs last year. Your “Since 2004″ draft history of the teams includes last season, after the Penguins team you are praising had played its last game. From 2003-2006, the Pens drafted 1-2-1-2, an average of 1.5 – far and away the highest in the NHL. From 02-06, it was 5-1-2-1-2, averaging 2.2. From 03-06, the Caps drafted 18-1-14-4, averaging 9.25. From 02-06 they drafted 12-18-1-14-4, averaging 9.8. Much different than the complete misrepresentation you have up above.
September 28th, 2007 at 7:54 am
Further, regarding defense – you’ll notice that they want to play Ovechkin in all situations, they say. Nobody ever wants to play Crosby on the PK – why? Because he doesn’t have the game to kill penalties, because he’s not skilled enough defensively (I am sure you will talk about how they want to save him for the power play, but then explain why everyone thinks Ovechkin is complete enough to do it all, yet nobody thinks Crosby is.
September 28th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
regarding my above post. Everyone is enthusiatic and biased about their own team and players, thus their elevation of how they’ll do each year. The word fanaticism was little “rough” to use. The premise of the comparison is great. Two great young players that represent the league and its youthful talent. It’s also great that they play on teams that have a history of intense rivalry. From my point of view, the Caps have gotten the short end of the stick by the Pens and I hope it changes soon!
As far as the defensive comparison goes, Ovechkin does struggle on Defense some. The fact that he’s relied upon to provide so much offense probably doesn’t help him on a team in the bottom five (last-year). Goal-scoring wingers tend to cheat a little more defensively to give them an edge on the D should the puck come back up the ice to them quickly. Center’s have more responsibility because they play between all four faceoff circle (center ice not counted but included). Crosby should be more defensively sound based on his position, and he is.
As for the PIM’s, I haven’t seen enough Pens games to give my opinion that Crosby is lazy once the puck is lost in the Offensive zone. Maybe he is, maybe he isn’t. Either way, he’s a supremely gifted player and mistakes are out of the ordinary for players like him.
Ovechkin’s hitting is key to his game. By his own admission, he was off his game all year because he came to camp out of shape, and it showed. That affected his checking/hitting. If you’ll notice, most of his highlight hits on youtube (or elsewhere) were from his rookie season. Having said that, Crosby seems to be an effective hitter but that’s not his game.
Either way, I’m happy I can loathe the Pens for such godo rivalry with the Caps… and we goth have great talent on both sides. Cheers to the cups won by both the Pens and the Caps in the future.
September 28th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
one of my biggest issues with this post is the lopsided ratios used for the graphs. Any statthat Ovechkin outperformed Crosby is skewed to make Crosby look closer. Any stat that Crosby outperformed Ovechkin is done to look more significant than it is. And by cherry picking stats, I am referring to your draft pick argument, and Ovechkin’s years “playing professionally” etc.
September 28th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
i dont think thats cherry-picking. I think they are valid arguments.
As far as the graph goes….blame Excel. LOL. It looks fishy, but i promise thats just they way they came out.Plus, the NUMBERS are the key, not how high the colored bar is.
September 28th, 2007 at 1:46 pm
Your draft pick argument is 100% invalid, as outlined above. How does this year’s draft impact last year’s performance on the ice? It doesn’t. The Pens drafted 5-1-2-1-2 leading into last season. Not a single one of those is as large a number as the average you claim, because the draft after all of the stats occurred is used in your BS calculation.
September 28th, 2007 at 1:54 pm
The draft position has nothing to do with Crosby vs AO vs Malkin vs Semin.
It was a SIDE NOTE. Did you not see that it was segregated from the rest of the post by “SIDE NOTE”?
It was a simple FUN FACT. What could a draft position have to do with how well crosy/AO did last season on the ice?
Now you’re just looking for things to argue about. And doing it poorly i might add. Your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired.
September 28th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
The entire side note is garbage, and is just this justification that somehow the Pens didn’t tank to get those players. How does a draft after those players were drafted reflect on whether they tanked in those years?
Whatever, you’re a clown.
September 28th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
There are people out there that suggest the Pens have this group of young talent because they TANKED on purpose. My point was that in hockey (with the lottery) you cant really guarantee yourself a top pick.
And if you look at the draft since 2004…the caps and pens are actually neck-and-neck in terms of draft position. I could have used another team to compare the Pens to, but we’re talking caps/pens so I went in that direction.
September 28th, 2007 at 2:21 pm
Sombrero will have a pro-Ovechkin post up shortly. Can’t wait to read your comments.
You have trouble with reading comprehension though. Perhaps we’ll email you the cliffs notes version.
September 28th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
I comprehend just fine. You deny that it’s all propaganda, which one would expect you to. After all, what good is propaganda when you admit that it’s severely twisted?
In hockey you can’t guarantee yourself the top pick. You can guarantee yourself to be in the top two, though. And which team in the NHL drafted in the top two for four consecutive years?
How many top two picks did the Pens have between 2003 and 2006? – Four.
How many top two picks did the Caps have between 1974 and 2007? – Four.
We can do top fives if you like, or we can do the entire span of Penguins history, but I don’t think you’ll like the results.
And why is the lottery in place in the first place? The Devils and Sharks would surely like to give you the answer to the question as to which two teams did the biggest tanks in league history.
September 28th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
What?
—–
Why don’t you email us a guest blog and we will put it up. You seem to be angry and have a lot to say. I am with the others in that I think Dagger went out of his way to attach a disclaimer to his original Blog Entry. I think some people might not have noticed or didn’t care to notice.
Mao
35,000 ft
September 28th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
I’ve been a diehard Pens fan and Caps hater since I was like ten (I’m 23 now). I just wanted to answer any following posts questioning that.
Some other prefacing facts:
-I almost threw up when Jagr went to WSH cause I saw him in a Caps jersey in a dream the night before. I stopped eating what I was eating and threw it away, I’m not exaggerating in the least.
-When I watched Ovechkin play in clips online I smiled because I believed we were going to get him in the draft (as we had just finished last that year), and when I found out the Caps got the #1 pick, while I didn’t quite throw up, the feeling wasn’t very far off.
-To add-on to the previous fac, I wasn’t just excited about the prospect of having Overchkin, I had my Ovie Pens jersey pre-ordered in my head. Talk about crashing dreams, eh?
With that said, I openly jumped for joy at work when told we won the “Crosby Lottery”, for obvious reasons. I’m not bitter that Crosby did not win the Calder, because I think it’s a meaningless award, honestly. I just think it’s a 50/50 shot at picking a rookie of worth (with regards to their impact on the league later, anyways).
Crosby will be the face, leader, captain, the everything of the Pittsburgh Penguins for the next fifteen years plus.
Ovechkin will be the face, leader, captain, the everything of the Washington Capitals for the next fifteen years plus.
I’m not asking these with any bias, but given the two who do you think:
…would be more likely to leave to another team via free agency when they get the chance?
…will score more goals in the end?
…would have more cups if they played with the exact same supporting cast (with a top line forward that can play center and wing for obvious reasons)
…will win more awards?
…will have a better, more productive career?
With the only bias I can think of, I say this. I watched Ilya Kovalchuk intently when he started his career and saw him carry that Thrashers team when Heatley was out a few years back, and the similarities between Ilya that year and the one before (with a full season on Heatley, a similarly talented winger) and Ovechkin in his first two full years (without anyone, then with Semin, and highly talented, but by no means Heatley-esque winger), and they seem to run the same parallel to me. Neither made the playoffs, they both stacked their stats because nobody else could score (for the most part), and both were highly touted rookies from Russia. Would it be out of the question to expect a 3rd year regression reminiciest of Kovalchuk’s? Kovy faltered with more talent around him as he didn’t have to carry it all anymore, so does that mean Ovie will, too? I honestly wouldn’t be surprised.
Crosby, simply put however, will continue to grow and produce at the highest of levels, as the team adds around him not to take pressure off, but to enhance his natural playmaking, passing, and shooting abilities. Their career arcs are going to differ in many different ways at many different times. I’m not saying they will all go in Crosby’s favor by any means, but rather one will have ups while the other doesn’t, and they’ll both be in the top 5 best players in the league (as they were last season, contrary to Ovie’s point totals).
It’s not a fair comparison (such as the Gretzky vs. Lemieux debate) because their situations are so much different. Refer back to the question I asked about the same supporting cast and really thik about it. I have, and I know what my vote would be.
P.S. I would NOT like to have gotten Ovie in that draft. Not for any reason having anything to do with him as a person or player, but rather because instead of Ovie and at least one high draft pick (because as seen in Washington, Ovie can’t single-handedly carry a team, hold your remarks, neither could Crosby) we got Malkin, Crosby, and Staal. It’s purely hypothetical that Staal wouldn’t be a Penguin if we have Ovie, but I believe not getting Ovie is the best thing that could have happened in that draft.
There, I’m done.
September 28th, 2007 at 2:45 pm
As a neutral party (hockey’s not my thing), I could make Mao’s suggestion happen. Le me know if you’re interested in doing a guest post on this here blog.
September 28th, 2007 at 2:48 pm
The draft position DOES have to do with the argument because Crosby has been playing with much more talented teammates than Ovechkin.
September 28th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
Phil-
———-
Wow, great comment. I appreciate “What?” and his comments to, even though we dont see eye to eye and he thinks I’m a clown.
And yeah, as Mao and I-Maque suggest we could get BOTH of you guys (and others) up on the site via Guest Blog if you wanted. Maybe just do one long blog entry about this discussion.
It might not take any more than some cut/paste from what has already been written in this comments thread. lol.
September 28th, 2007 at 2:54 pm
Sombrero-
Crosby doesn’t play with Malkin or Staal. In terms of W-L yes, it matters, but statistically not so much.
September 28th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
It would be unfair to throw out the talent received for both teams in the Crosby draft because, well, the Pens got Crosby.
When did this become about the teams anyway? Draft position shouldn’t matter. Talent can be bought and traded for. Why aren’t those a factor then? Why can’t we all just agree to disagree? I hate the Capitals, but this argument is getting pointless.
By the way, this is to ***WHAT?***
Pens Stanley Cups from 1990-present: 2
Caps Stanley Cups from…ever: 0
And in those draft stats you mentioned, the Caps weren’t exactly tearing up the league when the Pens were drafting in the top five.
There, I had my petty moment.
September 28th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
Like I mentioned above, I’m a Habs fan, not a Caps fan. I will be happy to compare Cup wins with you. Or hardware in general. My beloved Canadiens have had an award created specifically to be given to one of their players for his contributions (and thus the Selke was born) – care to discuss?
If you want my reasons for taking this so seriously, it’s because I haven’t seen a player like Ovechkin take the ice since I was able to watch the Rocket rip through the league when I was but a pup. I’ve seen players like Crosby come and go – all legends, no doubt, but none so complete nor as tenacious as Richard.
I see a lot in Ovechkin that I did in Richard – right down to the hate from the competition. As a Canadiens fan in New England, nobody ever praised Richard – there was always some negative aspect played in order to play up others. When Richard meted out his own personal justice on Hal Laycoe, a positive word was rarely spoken of him again where I am from. Every accomplishment carried an asterisk and was downplayed, while anyone appearing better than Richard in any facet (true or not) was painted in a glorious light.
Then there are the comparisons that can be drawn between the French Canadians at the time and the Europeans today – each looked at as an outcast, an invader, “different” than the native anglophones. There are many ways that the sour grapes and downplaying of Ovechkin remind me of that suffered upon the Rocket.
And while the degree of bile that is spewed toward Ovechkin, no matter how many disclaimers are attached to it or how it’s masked as a “statistical comparison”, has not yet reached the level of that shown to Richard (although Buffalo fans tried), it all reaks of the same bias and the same sequestered reasoning that has to pigeonhole certain areas to try to prove “superiority.” My tolerance of it wore thin half a century ago.
October 10th, 2007 at 10:53 am
Crosby does skate with Malkin on the power play, at least he did last season
October 10th, 2007 at 10:55 am
And What? Speaks the truth. Not that anybody will even see these comments. Blog posts die after a week, at best.
March 10th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
LOL at rigged graphics
March 12th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
Your Penguins/Crosby bias comes through crystal clear to people such as myself who are not fans of either team. Your childish bar graphs are ridiculously not to scale; you show Ovechkin playing 82 games to Crosby’s 80, yet ovechkins bar suggests he played at least 4 times as many. Same with total points; Crosby has 111 and Ovechkin has 99 yet the graph shows a 2:1 scale in Crosby’s favor.
Give it a break, they are completely different players and your stat tweaking and 1 on 1 comparisons show nothing except that you are biased fan trying to “prove a point” whether you claim to be doing so or not
January 24th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
I have to say the Crosby Ovechkin debate is a tuff one but really you cant press these facts to hard. Crosby is a playmaker, of coarse he is going to have more assists, he has even said that he looks more to distribute the puck then to score (not exact words). On the other side Ovi is a goal scorer, he is always being fed the puck. If he has the shot from a good feed why would he not take it, obviously he would have an enormous amount of shots. so really it is hard to contrast a playmaker to a goal scorer, two very different types of play.
February 6th, 2009 at 10:33 pm
whoever thinks that a goal is harder to get than an assist is an absolute retard
at least 85% of the goals require some kind of assist. Goals require powerful arms, and good acuracy, so What? If i work out I can do that. Assists require a great vision of the ice and great hockey sense. Thats why everyone says that MR.99 had the best of all time.